Wadjet Eye Games

Author Topic: Far too difficult  (Read 20568 times)

Yosharian

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Far too difficult
« on: June 30, 2012, 02:59:34 PM »
Am I really the only one who is finding this game really frustratingly difficult?  It's not even specific puzzles, it's the entire system of approaching problems that's so open-ended I never know what to do.

So far there have been 5-10 moments where I had to consult a walkthrough because I had no idea what to do, and I'm barely a quarter of the way through the game as far as I can see.

I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned this...  I've played some bloody abstract point + click adventures but really.  It really ruins the immersion.

List of stupidly abstract moments so far (Note: SPOILER ALERT):

1) Anna hiding under the bed - when you click on the bed, Anna says that she can't hide there because the Monster will find her.  She does not specify that what she means is hiding INSIDE THE COVERS.  This led to a 'wtfstuck' moment because I assumed I could not hide under the bed.

2) Telling Emma about the time - needlessly complicated.  It should just be a case of putting 'clock' into a conversation.  I did eventually figure out what I had to do first, by randomly clicking on everything.

3)  Finding the boss' first name - needlessly complicated

4) I've got to put a mirror inside a newspaper?  Really?  Do I need to even explain this one?  This is so bloody abstract as to be ridiculous.  Again the only way you'd figure this out is by random clicking everywhere.

5) There is no hint or clue that Bennet's wallet should be clicked on to produce two new items.

6) The wing mirror of the car is really difficult to spot unless you're specifically looking for it.  And since random clicking is how to solve this puzzle, it doesn't help.  Again, clicking on car produces 'not relevant' responses so it's not logical to assume that there is a part of the car that IS relevant.  Needlessly complicated.

7) Talking to Saul about the valve - why can't I just ask him directly for a wrench?  What the hell?  Needlessly complicated.

8 ) Having to remind Saul about his story in order to get the wrench - needlessly complicated and reliant upon an absolutely absurd feat of memory - picking out the obscure fact that Saul mentioned using it earlier.  Needlessly complicated and one of the worst so far.

9) Using the pipe on the rusty pipe - very unintuitive due to the fact that Ed doesn't specify WHY he can't use the pipe.  Logic: use the pipe to replace the broken one.  Click.  Can't do it.  Why not?  No idea, the game doesn't tell me.  Solution: back to random clicking.

10) The 'Pi' message.  Lovely little nerd easter egg, but what about people that don't know the symbol for Pi?  They are truly screwed, aren't they?

11) After you get all four characters - I've explored quite a bit and have no clue how to proceed.  Got a vague idea about getting the FTTN number from the Hospital database but can't get Emma to go away.  Can't put pressure on Tortoise so can't get his info to access the police database.  No clues from any characters or items in game to tell me where to go.  Solution: back to random clicking.

12) Can't use mainframe until you talk to Emma about it using the right click into menu system - why doesn't this conversation flow naturally from the point where you attempt to use the mainframe?  Needlessly complicated.

13) Using the ultra sonograph on the you know what - seriously?  How is this even remotely obvious?  I have no idea what a ultra sonograph is, it's a pretty huge leap in logic to realise that I have to use this with the you know what.

14) Couldn't use the USB PW cracker because Johnsen's computer has a flap over the USB slot, but the error msg doesn't say 'it's covered by a flap' it just says 'it doesn't fit' which results in another wtfstuck moment.  Needlessly complicated?

15) Distract Johnsen by asking him about the copy room - how am I supposed to know in advance that I can distract him by doing this?

16) Using the credit card to open the tech room door - wow.  I don't know what to say.

17) That bloody magnet puzzle, not even needlessly complicated just virtually impossible.  In the end I was just flicking the mouse up and down the screen in fury and it somehow passed the choke point.

That's about it, there were other places I got stuck but thought were fair enough not to include in the list, mainly they were places where due to previous frustration I wasn't looking hard enough.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 04:11:42 PM by Yosharian »

ZX497

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2012, 05:32:25 PM »
I seriously had no bigger problems with 14 out of your list of 15... the only thing I can agree with, is that when you're given complete freedom upon gaining control of all four characters, it was difficult to figure out what to do, since there were so many options.

All in all, I feel like you're nitpicking :-\

Tropxe

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2012, 06:24:09 PM »
None of those things are abstract. There's nothing abstract about using a mirror to see behind yourself. On top of that, Bennet says a couple of times that he'll need "eyes in the back of his head" to see down that alleyway, and one of the few clickable things in that area happens to be a mirror. All you really have to do is buy the newspaper, which is hard to miss, and then click on the bench because it's clickable. At this point he remarks he can't see behind himself. There's literally one thing in existence that would allow someone to look behind themselves, and it just so happens such an item is very close by.

I feel that a lot of your complaints are actually complaints about your own approach. For example, you say there's no hint that you should click on Bennet's wallet. Well why hint at an incredibly basic part of such games? It's like saying an FPS should tell you to shoot your gun, or a platform game should tell you to jump. Even if you didn't instinctively click on things in your own inventory, as per the convention of such a game, when you got to the point that you were asked to spend money to buy a newspaper, and while you lacked visible money, you clearly have a wallet... Why wouldn't you click on the wallet? You're claiming it's "abstract" to interact with your wallet in order to pay for something?

Again, you said you tried to use his pipe on the rusty one, which didn't work, so "back to random clicking". Why did you suddenly revert to random clicking? It was obviously linked to the pipe, so maybe try the main button on the rusty pipe? Why on Earth would you get to that point and then think "Uh, well I definitely won't click on the pipe, instead I'll randomly click on everything else that's much further away from me and clearly unrelated to what I just attempted"? The list goes on; don't know what a sonograph is? Welcome to the club. But you also didn't know that right-clicking on things tells you what they are? Is it not the completely obvious course of action to do so on an item you're not sure about?

Yosharian

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2012, 06:40:42 PM »
None of those things are abstract. There's nothing abstract about using a mirror to see behind yourself. On top of that, Bennet says a couple of times that he'll need "eyes in the back of his head" to see down that alleyway, and one of the few clickable things in that area happens to be a mirror. All you really have to do is buy the newspaper, which is hard to miss, and then click on the bench because it's clickable. At this point he remarks he can't see behind himself. There's literally one thing in existence that would allow someone to look behind themselves, and it just so happens such an item is very close by.

I feel that a lot of your complaints are actually complaints about your own approach. For example, you say there's no hint that you should click on Bennet's wallet. Well why hint at an incredibly basic part of such games? It's like saying an FPS should tell you to shoot your gun, or a platform game should tell you to jump. Even if you didn't instinctively click on things in your own inventory, as per the convention of such a game, when you got to the point that you were asked to spend money to buy a newspaper, and while you lacked visible money, you clearly have a wallet... Why wouldn't you click on the wallet? You're claiming it's "abstract" to interact with your wallet in order to pay for something?

Again, you said you tried to use his pipe on the rusty one, which didn't work, so "back to random clicking". Why did you suddenly revert to random clicking? It was obviously linked to the pipe, so maybe try the main button on the rusty pipe? Why on Earth would you get to that point and then think "Uh, well I definitely won't click on the pipe, instead I'll randomly click on everything else that's much further away from me and clearly unrelated to what I just attempted"? The list goes on; don't know what a sonograph is? Welcome to the club. But you also didn't know that right-clicking on things tells you what they are? Is it not the completely obvious course of action to do so on an item you're not sure about?

Can't buy a newspaper til you have a credit card, and it isn't logical to assume you'd need a credit card to buy a newspaper if you've never used this type of machine before.  I, never having used one before, would have assumed I'd need some coins.  But this is all irrelevant because I did not realise I needed a newspaper, and therefore had no reason to buy one.  Hence it's abstract.  The developers have this amazingly clever idea about using a newspaper disguise trick, and you have to click randomly until you discover it.  That's just bad game design.  Also, the mirror isn't immediately obviously clickable as I explained before.  Furthermore, it is a leap of logic to link the 'eyes in the back of my head' comment to 'mirror'.

Wallet: it is NOT analogous to shooting a gun or jumping.  If I was to create an analogy to a platformer, it would be jumping in a random spot to reveal a hidden doorway.  And the criticism levelled at me is that I should have been jumping everywhere because that's how you play the game.

Another thing to note is that there are two ways to click on the wallet, and I did click on it...  I just didn't click on it using BOTH BUTTONS.  If there had been a message such as 'right click to open the wallet' then it would have been fine.

"You're claiming it's "abstract" to interact with your wallet in order to pay for something?"

No, I'm claiming it's abstract to expect me to click on everything in my inventory including things I may have clicked on already but with the wrong button in order to learn that there is a credit card which will give me the clue that I need to buy something - again, you're thinking like someone who already knows the solution rather than someone who doesn't.

Pipe: no, you missed the point, or misunderstood.  The problem was that the pipe was flowing with water, but the game didn't indicate that to me.  I assumed that because I was unable to replace the pipe at that time, that the puzzle DID NOT INVOLVE REPLACING THE PIPE.  When it did, I merely had to turn off the water first.  Which involved a bloody rigmarole involving a wrench, but let's not go there.  If I were to attempt this in real life and the water prevented me from replacing the pipe, then my thought process would begin with 'The water is flowing, I need to turn off the water first'.  Because this thought process is not represented in the game, the logic chain is broken and the game devolves into random clicking again.

Tropxe

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2012, 07:06:45 PM »
Ed says he can't do anything while the water is flowing. He says, if I remember correctly, that you'll need to stop the water flow before he can do anything. When you interact with the newspaper machine, Bennet says it takes credit cards. Even putting that aside, the very fact it has a monetary charge would lead you to the wallet, and clicking on the wallet (not looking at it (right click) but interacting with it (left click)) would produce your credit card, which is clearly a means for paying for things, even if Bennet hadn't pointed out the machine takes credit cards.

Did you really think the newspaper machine was there for no reason at all? It's a very, very basic element of this sort of game that things are there for a reason most of the time. Let's say you ignore everything, then sit on the bench; the remark leads you to believe that you're going in the right direction but aren't quite there. So what can you do then? Well you could buy a newspaper. You could click on the mirror on the car. You could walk more right and see a rock tumble down, then pick it up.

Pretty much everything you can do contributes to solving the puzzle. You then have a mirror you can't remove with your bare hands, but you just found a rock (or will soon if you walk around). Well it's logical to use the rock to smash it off. Then you have a mirror and a newspaper, and can sit on the bench. What possible combination could occur next? That's not abstract. Abstract would be like using the square on the triangle to create some circles; something totally removed from practicality or literal objects. I'm sorry you had trouble with the game, but you're in a tiny minority of finding those things confusing or troublesome. People here will be happy to help you when you're stuck, but you don't have to try and shift the blame onto the game itself.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 07:08:19 PM by Tropxe »

Offline Breyer600

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2012, 07:17:54 PM »
I didn't find any of the things you mention to be abstract in the slightest.  A number of them you get hints to simply by examining things - Bennet mentions always needing help with the copy machine if you just look at the copy room thereby giving you a hint on how to distract Johnson.

Ed says he can't do anything while the water is flowing. He says, if I remember correctly, that you'll need to stop the water flow before he can do anything.

That plus you can actually see the water coming out of the pipe at that point.

Offline Jazzy

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2012, 11:01:08 PM »
I've been watching this thread today as the TC's post grew longer and longer with additions. I didn't post, as no questions were asked.

I, personally, have created accounts at various boards of a game that I was playing just to ask for help. That's actually how I ended up here, with a technical question for another game. This is an extremely nice and helpful community, and many of us, I'm sure, would be more than happy to help, if asked, with anywhere from a nudge in the right direction to a direct solution, or anywhere in between.

You could say that Point & Click Adventure games are sort of my genre. If there's not a tutorial, as is so with Resonance, I find the beginning of these games are a bit of exploration to figure out how the game works. (Sometimes, not always, as a lot are pretty basic.) But that's a fun part for me, also.

I, myself, think the game was terrific and I thoroughly enjoyed it (even when I did get stuck and would get frustrated). I found that listening to what the characters were saying, or thinking, would help me through a tough spot. I think there are some quite complex puzzles, but they were fun to figure out, and the using of multiple characters to solve a puzzle is a bit unique to most games I've played.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 11:54:18 PM by Jazzy »

Memphis

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2012, 11:09:46 PM »
Ok, let's relax!

I did have troubles w/a few puzzles, but out of your list, only the credit card+door one was difficult IMO (a player whose never heard of that RL trick would be totally screwed; I knew of it, but didn't expect to use it in a game!). My big snags were the finale (unfair--the only trial-and-error puzzle), and obtaining the blueprint.

Nearly every puzzle just required being very observant to what characters told you and taking queues from what was in the background. Resonance was--especially compared to many adventure games--tough, but fair. The systems were intuitive and made sense.

A lot of adventure game developers get too cute, forgetting that player isn't in their head. We should be solving "real" problems in the game world, not figuring out the designer's arbitrary thought process!

Are you a newcomer to adventure games, by any chance? Either way, hope you still had fun despite the trouble.

Offline Jazzy

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 11:45:29 PM »
the credit card+door one was difficult

Oh, gosh, that one stumped me because it was too easy, with all the other complexity going on around you. I never thought it would be so simple, lol!

Quote
Resonance was--especially compared to many adventure games--tough, but fair.

I totally agree. Some parts took me longer to figure out, or I needed a bit of help, but it came together nicely and I still had fun. At times we even had multiple solutions. :)

Offline tramponline

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 02:22:04 AM »
If there's not a tutorial, as is so with Resonance, I find the beginning of these games are a bit of exploration to figure out how the game works.

:) Jazzy, there're actually TWO TUTORIALS in Resonance. You can check it.

Start a new game (or reload one of your savegames) & select the main menu:

In the main menu, you have the option to select "show tutorial messages" for in-game tips messages, as you go along.
AND you can choose the menu point "How To Play", a detailed guide on 'how to play' and the control interface! :P

If there were any more tutorials (hint system is asking the player-characters), I'd assume the game wants to mock me! ;D



@Memphis
You make some very valid and fair points.
Though, what makes you believe the finale is 'trial and error'?
(I could be wrong here, but I derive from your statement that you're still quite unsure as to *why* or *how* you won that 'conversation'?)

You just have to remind yourself of a few things:

a) Remember Amul Batra's speech about Resonance blasts and proximity? [application: Juno Labs/ Ed's Apartment/ geometry compass]

b) Did you realise that the crane area on top is *conveniently* divided into congruent segments?

c) The fact that one of your player characters is carrying the activated counterpart to Ed's device.
 
d) Last, but not least, the ability of Ray & Bennet to "Look around" and thus check the distance to Ed's live Resonance device. :)


Far from easy, but the clues are all there (there might be some additional ones that I missed here) and it's certainly not 'trial & error'. :P
 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 03:20:29 AM by tramponline »

Starmaker

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 05:27:38 AM »
She does not specify that what she means is hiding INSIDE THE COVERS.
She does say exactly that. "I could hide under the covers... No, he'd find me." (Quoting from memory here.)

It should just be a case of putting 'clock' into a conversation.  I did eventually figure out what I had to do first, by randomly clicking on everything.
It's kind of sad for me to hear that Resonance is even solvable by randomly clicking on everything. Because that's what the STM system was implemented to prevent.

Finding the boss' first name - needlessly complicated
"Hi, secretary!"
"Hi, repairman!"
"Could you tell me your boss's name?"
"Yes, it's Edmundo Ruiz!"
"Also, isn't it time for you to leave so I could hack into the mainframe?"
"Sure, let me check... Crap, 7:30 already?"
> stick USB into mainframe
> unlocked
Woohoo! You win! You get all the treasure in the world and a mercedes full of cheerleaders! 341/340! All achievements unlocked!

That better?

The wing mirror of the car is really difficult to spot unless you're specifically looking for it.
There's one thing in this scene that I was worried might not actually be obvious. In the 2009 version (the first version I played), the piece of brick actually fell down when Bennet was walking by. If you look closely, the animation is still there when you pick up the brick. Since I knew the solution to this puzzle, I couldn't gauge the difficulty when it changed and even reported it during the playtest. But since you didn't mention it, I now think it's okay. Whoa, that was a load off my mind.

Talking to Saul about the valve - why can't I just ask him directly for a wrench?  What the hell?  Needlessly complicated.
"Hi Saul! I need:
- a wrench
- a screwdriver
- a lantern
- lantern oil
- a sword
- magic mushrooms
- a water chip
- a dispel potion
- a map of the sandstone caverns
- the holy grail
Do you have any of those?"

The 'Pi' message.  Lovely little nerd easter egg, but what about people that don't know the symbol for Pi?  They are truly screwed, aren't they?
WAT
You should stop playing. This game contains scenes of horror and violence that are not suitable for younger children.

it just says 'it doesn't fit' which results in another wtfstuck moment.
I should have submitted the suggestion that the USB drive should only fit into the slot on the third or fourth try. You know, like in real life.

Offline tramponline

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2012, 06:31:26 AM »

The 'Pi' message.  Lovely little nerd easter egg, but what about people that don't know the symbol for Pi?  They are truly screwed, aren't they?
WAT
You should stop playing. This game contains scenes of horror and violence that are not suitable for younger children.

LOL! ;D
But for real, Yosharian, you might want to check the terminal in this exact room. You'll be able to find a program called 'calculator' with the exact same symbol. Without actually knowing 'pi', or what it means, even randomly-searching-for-clues-players are therefore able to make that connection (eventually), purely on a visual base. :)     

Yosharian

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2012, 06:33:56 AM »
So apart from the standard smart alec responses, most of you found it easy.  Well, I guess I'm just thick then.

I managed to solve Gemini Rue without much trouble.

Offline tramponline

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2012, 06:58:45 AM »
@Yosharian

To put this discussion back on a reasonable level:

Other adventure games (incl. Gemini Rue) provide you more or less with certain alternatives/connections to choose from. Just one alternative of game control mechanics.

Resonance on the other hand wants you and encourages you to actively search for those connections/alternatives. Just another alternative in game control mechanics. That is probably the major difference.
It demands, up to a certain point, the application of 'real world logic' instead of 'learned adventure game conventions' (i.e. not "use pipe on rusty pipe = fixed", but rather "what steps do I have to take to fix that leakage?" based on the info at hand (mostly observation will provide those clues).

I perfectly understand that the player has to adjust to that kind of game logic - I had to! It takes some time to do that, no question.

Resonance expects you to use deductive reasoning and then utilize your result, whereas a lot of other games provide you with various alternatives and in a way, you 'choose the most logical one'.

Just a different approaches and both sides of the same coin.

Each player chooses which one suites him or her best...   
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 12:45:25 PM by tramponline »

Tropxe

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Re: Far too difficult
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2012, 12:42:37 PM »
The weird thing with the "Pi puzzle" is that I didn't even there was such a puzzle until people mentioned in on these forums. I went into the room, took in the scene, clicked on things to see what the characters said and then came across the keypad. I noticed that the numbers 1, 3 and 4 were faded, like you get on a keyboard or phone with repeated use. I entered 134 but noticed there was an extra space for a fourth digit, so just went through different combinations, like 1341 and so on, until I happened to put in 3141.

I didn't recognise it as pi, and didn't check the terminal until much later, and even then I didn't recognise the pi symbol until I pressed it and it output 3.141.