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Wadjet Eye Games => The Blackwell series => Topic started by: toschi2222 on April 27, 2014, 04:53:23 PM

Title: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: toschi2222 on April 27, 2014, 04:53:23 PM
Hi,
I finished the game and although I think the series is amazing I was left with some questions at the end of epiphany. Maybe there are no answers or maybe I just missed them. But I am interested to what you people think.

1. Who is the shooter from the beginning of the game? Is it the husband / father (sorry forgot his name)?
2. Who shot the little girl, Kendra? As far as I remember she bled to death because of a gun wound but who is the shooter here?
3. Why did Joey come back from the light? So in one flashback we see how Joey was sent of into the light but he came back as a spirit guide. And why was he so special that he couldn't leave at the end? Why him?

Just some questions that came to mind. Maybe something is answered in the commentary mode, but I haven't listened to it yet. Thanks.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Tellah on April 27, 2014, 05:05:36 PM
I'm still a little confused myself over the answer to question 2, but the answers to questions 1 and part of 3 are actually in the game (I haven't listened to the commentary either).

Not sure if if needs spoilers, but you can find the answers to questions 1 and 3ish by-
Talking to Madeline as Joey while she's possessing Rosa
- it's very easy to miss that conversation (I missed it the first time through). If you don't have a save around that time/want to know right away, specifically the answers are:
1. The shooter at the beginning is Michael Cooper/Madeline's Host. His soul was weak enough that she pushed him into it and left him not remembering what he did except for some guilt.
3. Joey became a spirit guide because he was the last ghost 'saved' before Madeline's host severed their connection. Since Madeline couldn't act as a spirit guide anymore, the job fell on him for whatever reason. Still not sure why Joey couldn't pass on at the end, though.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: toschi2222 on April 27, 2014, 05:19:59 PM
1. The shooter at the beginning is Michael Cooper/Madeline's Host. His soul was weak enough that she pushed him into it and left him not remembering what he did except for some guilt.
3. Joey became a spirit guide because he was the last ghost 'saved' before Madeline's host severed their connection. Since Madeline couldn't act as a spirit guide anymore, the job fell on him for whatever reason. Still not sure why Joey couldn't pass on at the end, though.

Oh, great! Thanks for that. I did indeed miss the conversation with her at the end. I can replay that part easily. That only leaves me wondering who is responsible for little Kendra's fate.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Mister L on April 28, 2014, 03:30:14 AM
2. Who shot the little girl, Kendra? As far as I remember she bled to death because of a gun wound but who is the shooter here?
I think it was the same "guy" who shot George Ostin. Maybe he aimed at her mother and just missed?

I've also got a question:
How is Joey gonna survive in todays New York? He has no ID, no knowledge of technical stuff, he has no money, no place to live, he doesn't know anybody. :(
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: McSpain on April 28, 2014, 06:09:33 AM
He is going to tell Durkin everything about the vampires and bestowers and they will team up to fight them. At least that what would say.  :D
Abe might add: And he knows how to blow stuff. He'll manage.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: DaveGilbert on April 28, 2014, 12:45:17 PM
Abe might add: And he knows how to blow stuff. He'll manage.

Hah. Believe me, Abe would add a lot more then that!
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Mister L on April 28, 2014, 02:34:07 PM
He is going to tell Durkin everything about the vampires and bestowers and they will team up to fight them.

Yes, that seems to be the only way - and Joey earns Durkins trust by telling him who killed his mother! :)
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: McSpain on April 28, 2014, 03:29:51 PM
Abe might add: And he knows how to blow stuff. He'll manage.

Hah. Believe me, Abe would add a lot more then that!

Just keeping it short for the younger readers.  ;)
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: toschi2222 on April 29, 2014, 04:22:25 AM
I think it was the same "guy" who shot George Ostin. Maybe he aimed at her mother and just missed?

Yeah, I also think this is true. Makes the most sense.

I've also got a question:
How is Joey gonna survive in todays New York? He has no ID, no knowledge of technical stuff, he has no money, no place to live, he doesn't know anybody. :(

I like this ending. It's not that Joey has not lived (or let's say "existed") in the 21st century before. He just didn't have to use computers or cellphones before so that's why he is a bit unexperienced with them. Maybe he will meet a woman, have children and a job? Maybe he'll cannot cope with all this and becomes a drug addict? Maybe he want's to tell this story and expresses it through the best storytelling method we have? So he becomes a video game designer and creates a point and click adventure?
Who knows, but it's more fun this way.

Thanks Dave Gilbert. Never did I regret a Wadjeteye Games purchase and will continue to buy those games day one.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: jwalt10705 on April 29, 2014, 07:46:03 AM
Dave's story, Dave's ending. In my opinion, the perfect ending would have also brought Lauren back to life, and she would have reconnected with Joey on the bridge while he dumped Rosa's ashes into the river. They would both have lost their powers. It always seemed to me that the relationship between Joey and Lauren was different from his relationship with Rosa. They could have lived out a normal, albeit, undocumented life, together.

Alternatively, it might have ended with a role reversal in which Joey was alive and Rosa was the ghost. That would have been funny, but it wouldn't have ended the series. Rosa could have gotten even.

Edit: Oh, and instead of Joey's tie, Rosa could use those sexy earmuffs.

Thank you Dave (and all the others)!
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: frederic09 on April 30, 2014, 08:36:00 AM
I would like to ask a question :

4) Why Joey was tied with Patricia Blackwell at first ?

There are a lot of persons in the world, so... why her ?

Dave's story, Dave's ending. In my opinion, the perfect ending would have also brought Lauren back to life, and she would have reconnected with Joey on the bridge while he dumped Rosa's ashes into the river. They would both have lost their powers. It always seemed to me that the relationship between Joey and Lauren was different from his relationship with Rosa. They could have lived out a normal, albeit, undocumented life, together.

Yeah, i agree with you. Rosa spirit could have appeared in her own head and asked her aunt to go out. The love/hate between Joey and Lauren would have been wonderful. And seeing Dr Quentin's face when he sees Lauren in flesh would have been funky too :P

Alternatively, it might have ended with a role reversal in which Joey was alive and Rosa was the ghost. That would have been funny, but it wouldn't have ended the series. Rosa could have gotten even.

Edit: Oh, and instead of Joey's tie, Rosa could use those sexy earmuffs.

Haha. Who knows. But it's true, it's still an open ending. Dave can makes Rosa (or Lauren?) reappear but as a spirit guide :D And that launches a new series of Bestowers ^_^
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: yidgamer on April 30, 2014, 12:13:58 PM
My big question:
5) Why does the universe enter Rosa's mind and why does it have the effect it does? At first Madeline describes the effects on Patricia and Lauren as "breaking" their minds, not letting the universe in. This does seem to be explained by a part of their souls fleeing to the void allowing the universe to flood in, which seems to be corroborated by Quentin's statement that they are receiving sensory input from outside that is overwhelming their brains, but why would it continue for Rosa after she refills her mind by escaping the void? When the same thing happened with the Countess, it was for a completely different reason and she survived and was able to function but went insane. Why does the same thing not happen to Rosa? Is she just so strong that she dies rather than become the Countess or even enter the catatonic state she was in before? Or was Madeline lying and the Countess actually went insane not because she banished Madeline but because Madeline tried to control her? Would that mean that if Rosa had banished Joey in Deception under Gavin's influence she would not have gone insane? Overall there seems to be a lot of uncertainty over what exactly is causing each of the "illnesses" of the Countess and the Blackwells that causes them to react differently to "the universe flooding in." Any ideas?
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: yidgamer on April 30, 2014, 12:56:55 PM
I think it was the same "guy" who shot George Ostin. Maybe he aimed at her mother and just missed?

Yeah, I also think this is true. Makes the most sense.
It doesn't explain the mysterious disappearing bullet though.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Sslaxx on May 01, 2014, 08:44:13 AM
My big question:
5) Why does the universe enter Rosa's mind and why does it have the effect it does? At first Madeline describes the effects on Patricia and Lauren as "breaking" their minds, not letting the universe in. This does seem to be explained by a part of their souls fleeing to the void allowing the universe to flood in, which seems to be corroborated by Quentin's statement that they are receiving sensory input from outside that is overwhelming their brains, but why would it continue for Rosa after she refills her mind by escaping the void? When the same thing happened with the Countess, it was for a completely different reason and she survived and was able to function but went insane. Why does the same thing not happen to Rosa? Is she just so strong that she dies rather than become the Countess or even enter the catatonic state she was in before? Or was Madeline lying and the Countess actually went insane not because she banished Madeline but because Madeline tried to control her? Would that mean that if Rosa had banished Joey in Deception under Gavin's influence she would not have gone insane? Overall there seems to be a lot of uncertainty over what exactly is causing each of the "illnesses" of the Countess and the Blackwells that causes them to react differently to "the universe flooding in." Any ideas?
Madeline was probably lying; I too came to the conclusion that, had she not been trapped, she would have sooner or later have tried to possess Jocelyn. She was likely behind the death of Michael's sister too (not accidentally, as she claimed).

As concerning Gavin, it would've been a moot point even if Madeline was telling the truth.

As for the rest, dunno. I imagine that what happened to Rosa is unsurvivable; she was a dead woman walking from the moment she left the Void.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Akari on May 03, 2014, 07:21:49 AM
The ID problem I think can be solved. There are people with amnesia who forget who they are, including their names, and therefore cannot get back to their old lives. Joey can make up something like that for the authorities and thus get help with the new ID and everything; he can also get a fake ID, if there is no other way. He can occupy Rosa's old apartment since it is free now - unless it's too hard emotionally to do it - I don't think anybody cares as long as the rent is paid for. She also probably had some savings, maybe not much but still. He can also have her stuff - in case there are questions, he can say he was her boyfriend, nobody can prove otherwise. He was also the one got the... remains (by the way, I liked that the series ended the same way it began - on the bridge, saying goodbye).
And it's not like he does know not the modern world at all, he did see Rosa use all these gadgets. So imo he can more or less manage. It will be hard though; all acquaintances he has ever had are long gone.

On the other hand, the situation Rosa ended up with could not have had any other outcome imo. Imagine she survives - but what to do with that "universe" in her head? How to live with it? And even without it... In the "real" world she would end up locked up - either in an asylum or in jail, and not even Sam Durkin would be able to help her. And even if we assume she was released - all these records would complicate her life badly.

I do wish we could see more of that group which Gavin belonged to. I did want to see a bigger picture of the story - I mean, seeing the part of the society that is fully aware of what Bestowers are. But I suppose the intention was to stick to the main characters and their so to speak isolation from the rest of the world.

Anway, there is just one strange thing that I noticed: Rosa ended up in an asylum, we do not know how much time she spent there but let's assume that it was a very short "stay". Palmer saw the dead body, Rosa knocked him out cold, but was eventually found and brought to the asylum - some time had to pass, even if it was just some hours. So, how come that after Rosa runs away from there the body is still there?.. Surely the police would have taken away the body and Madeline would have had to follow. Unless she maybe prevented them somehow - if we try to find an explanation.

Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Akari on May 03, 2014, 07:29:58 AM
Dave's story, Dave's ending. In my opinion, the perfect ending would have also brought Lauren back to life, and she would have reconnected with Joey on the bridge while he dumped Rosa's ashes into the river. They would both have lost their powers. It always seemed to me that the relationship between Joey and Lauren was different from his relationship with Rosa. They could have lived out a normal, albeit, undocumented life, together.
I'm pretty sure Joey and Lauren were in love with each other but never expressed their feelings. At least with Joey it was stated clearly in the commentary to Unbound. And there was a hint about Lauren in the last game as well (haven't played the game with the commentary yet, maybe I'm wrong). So that actually would have been very interesting. Pity it was never meant to be.
Originally I liked Joey+Lauren team much more. But Rosa did become stronger than Lauren in the end.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: yidgamer on May 04, 2014, 09:13:03 AM
I think I figured out a possible answer to my own question. Patricia, Lauren and Jocelyn had virtually the same condition. Whether it was because Jocelyn banished Madeline or because Madeline tried to control her, part of her soul was missing. The same was definitely true for Lauren and Patricia from what we see in the void. That allowed the universe to flow into their heads and drive them insane. Perhaps Lauren and Patricia would have wound up like the countess except for their insanity being controlled by drugs. Rosa, however, escapes the void and reclaims her fractured  soul. This somehow made the universe pushing in cause death instead of insanity. It never made that much sense anyway, but this at least explains the difference.

As for Cooper's body, Madeline explains that they didn't get it before everyone fell unconscious. I think they found Rosa and unconscious Cory, took them to the hospital, and never even knew about Cooper's body because Cory was the only one who knew about it, and who knows how long he was unconscious for. I doubt they would be anxious to search around the corner in a massive blizzard with two medical emergencies to take care of.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Pregnant Orc on May 04, 2014, 02:11:26 PM
Coopers body being left inside I think had to to with Maddy. Once she began with the vortex I don't think anyone could enter the building.
It's also possible that Palmer had not had time to radio in that he found the body so very little effort was put into entering the school after they took care of him and Rosa, assuming he didn't wake up until the hospital that is.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Akari on May 04, 2014, 06:39:30 PM
I think I figured out a possible answer to my own question. Patricia, Lauren and Jocelyn had virtually the same condition.
When I started to think about this, it got really confusing for me too.
Indeed, they are different from other people since they are Bestowers, they have some special connection with the universe, since they exist somewhere in between the two worlds - the living and the dead. If I understand correctly that mind break actually means that the soul of the Bestower gets somehow sucked away by the void - so the soul is safely hidden in the void, barely connected with the actual body, with the mind becoming part of the void. Though a Bestower's mind should originally be connected to the void in fact, it's just that with the mind break it's like a floodgate opening.
So I guess what Rosa managed to do is to sort of walk back to her head. Doesn't that make her stronger than all her predecessors? It sure does. But doesn't cancel the fact that the gate to the void was already fully open. I'm not sure about the death though. Perhaps it would keep on trying to suck her back in and trying to stop it caused the death?

It also appears that unwillingness to perform the duty has nothing to do with going insane because Madeline said that it was her responsible for Patricia's and Lauren's insanity. As for the Countess it is a bit unclear, but I would not be surprised if it was Madeline's doing as well. However, it is also possible that banishing the guide might lead to the same kind of mind break.

Not sure about what happened to Joey not being accepted by that wave of spirits passing through. You'd think it's because of his connection to Rosa. Is it because of him being the spirit guide or because Rosa is special? If it's the former then other Bestowers' ghosts should have stayed - Madeline being the exception since her current host was dead; so the statements that all the ghosts were saved would not be fully correct. If the latter - that would mean that all the Bestowers of the world were left without their companions and there would be nobody to help the new spirits.
It is by the way a pity that we did not see many other Bestowers. I wonder how many of those there are. One for every big city or? :) Since it was mentioned that one Bestower in New York is enough. If there are many, then they should form an Internet society so that they wouldn't feel so alone in this world :) Maybe hold yearly meetings, how about that :) No travelling by plane though I suppose huh

Quote
As for Cooper's body, Madeline explains that they didn't get it before everyone fell unconscious.
Oh, thanks, I think I missed that one - played the game only once so far, too busy atm, trying hard not to start the game again or I'll never leave :P

Sorry for long post :) I do enjoy going into details like this :)
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: yidgamer on May 04, 2014, 10:46:51 PM
Self-Correction: I think it might actually be Rosa who says (through her superpowers) they didn't find Cooper's body .
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: mbncd on May 10, 2014, 04:11:27 AM
I didn't see the conversation explaining that Joey being the last freed ghost before the separation was the reason for his being stuck behind. Does that mean that he really will be allowed to move on once he dies again? I was so worried that he'd be stuck behind again when that time came, unable to rejoin the Blackwells and Danny in peace where he belongs.

I'm not really sure what purpose bringing him back to life was supposed to serve as he can no longer perform his spirit work and everyone he cares about (from his original life and the Blackwells) are dead, so it seems kind of cruel to thrust him back into life...

But maybe it was necessary to "reset" his spirit? To stop him from being a spirit guide so that when he dies again he'll just be a normal spirit?

I can kinda see that working out so long as he would be able to freely go into the light and not come back next time. Joey is awesome but the poor guy needs a break already. Die, Joey, die and be happy!



Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: jarnik on May 11, 2014, 05:50:28 PM
I am struggling to get an "Epiphany - Hows and whys of Joey" achievement - could I ask anyone for a slight hint? I am playing the Humble Store (non-Steam) version.
I have finished the game and I would hate to miss the important angle of the story (though I've tried hard to explore all the dialogues).

Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Lyrisath on May 12, 2014, 01:58:04 PM
If that's the one I think it is, to the best of my memory it requires you to talk to Madeline while she's possessing Rosa in front of Grace Church. I don't remember exactly which options I pressed, but I don't think you can miss it as long as you exhaust the dialogue options before you use the tie on her.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: jarnik on May 14, 2014, 05:41:37 PM
If that's the one I think it is, to the best of my memory it requires you to talk to Madeline while she's possessing Rosa in front of Grace Church. I don't remember exactly which options I pressed, but I don't think you can miss it as long as you exhaust the dialogue options before you use the tie on her.

Thank you, that was it! I was so focused on trying to save Rosa that I didn't even attempt to talk to Madeline at that point.
Title: Re: Story Questions (Spoilers)
Post by: Lyrisath on May 14, 2014, 06:53:19 PM
If that's the one I think it is, to the best of my memory it requires you to talk to Madeline while she's possessing Rosa in front of Grace Church. I don't remember exactly which options I pressed, but I don't think you can miss it as long as you exhaust the dialogue options before you use the tie on her.

Thank you, that was it! I was so focused on trying to save Rosa that I didn't even attempt to talk to Madeline at that point.
Totally understandable. :D